Nerf storage implant to disallow objective items [TEST MERGE]

[beck-thompson]

Why / Balance

I think most players agree that the storage implant is just not fun in its current state! There is a lot of metagaming and it is not fun as security to try to determine if you "know" enough to search someone. For syndicates, it isn't fun to have an item that feels like a force buy if you have steal objectives because of how powerful it is. The idea is this PR could hopefully reduce its usage (It is solidly the most popular syndicate item)

This is an open discussion! If anyone has any other ideas on how to make it more fun feel free to comment! Any and all feedback is welcome (As long as its constructive and nice obviously 😃)

I think the main things to play with are:
1.) Size of storage
2.) Blacklist of objective items
3.) Price

But again, please post your own thoughts!

Requirements

• I have read and am following the Pull Request and Changelog Guidelines.
• I have added media to this PR or it does not require an ingame showcase.

Breaking changes

Changelog

🆑

• tweak: The storage implant can no longer store objective items.

[K-Dynamic]

At minimum:

• Avoid the blacklist
• Reduce storage to 2x2 or 2x3

A few other ideas:

• Make certain implants 'unsafe' and have a chance to do physical or stam damage on usage or at random periods (further details to discuss later)
• Rework implanter removal discovery and removal again
• Add random dead drop zones or a dead drop beacon/marker where the objective item must be left to succeed

[beck-thompson]

At minimum:

Avoid the blacklist
Reduce storage to 2x2 or 2x3

Could you explain why? I personally feel like storing objective items in the implant is the core issue. It makes the implant basically a force buy (gameplay strategy wise) for anyone with a steal objective.

[ArtisticRoomba]

One of the biggest problems I have with this is that a blacklist by design is not well communicated to the player. Belts largely get away with this: you expect tools to only fit in a utility belt and syringes, bottles, etc., to only fit in a medical belt.

With a storage implanter: well... you kinda expect anything that's small enough to fit in there. It's entirely not communicated (unless you mess with the shape of the storage implanter?) to the player that you can't fit anything. This is especially a problem when 99.9% of the time a new player will buy a storage implant explicitly to get away with hiding objective items.

I like the attempt to curb the lamest and most uninteresting parts of the current traitor objective pool. But there definitely needs to be some discussion around how exactly it should be curved other than a simple whitelist.

[kosticia]

And what about poor thief? In this way, storage implant in his toolbox should be probably replaced with something else.

[Entvari]

Really not a fan of completely gutting the storage.
The implanter metashield being removed has made this item less of a menace, while using it to hide objective items is still annoying the storage implant still needs to have some actual use-case, absolutely nobody is going to drop 8TC for 1x2 storage. What're you going to keep, an individual Esword?
Currently you can use a storage implant to conceal a webvest and a sufficient weapon, a personal favorite means of mine to keep a stock of gear hidden as backup.
Last but not least there's also the effects to Thief, nerfing the implant to this extent would certainly warrant compensation to the thief toolkit that contains it, as the storage implant was pretty much the only reason that bundle was selected to begin-with, it'd likely just no longer be selected.

[ScarKy0]

This is too much of a nerf all at once. I would suggest taking more or a gradual approach.
The values I wanted to try is making it 2x3 for 6TC, while also not allowing steal objectives.
And if it is not already the case, the size of items that can fit in the implanter should be <=Small only

We should also have some way to communicate the fact steal objectives cannot go in the implanter, but i do not know how

[K-Dynamic]

Could you explain why? I personally feel like storing objective items in the implant is the core issue. It makes the implant basically a force buy (gameplay strategy wise) for anyone with a steal objective.

Blacklists and whitelists are kinda clumsy codewise and not intuitive. Imagine buying a storage implanter the first time and finding out you can't store cap's ID inside (yet you can store other IDs).

It's usually used to store contraband and gadgets to avoid normal bag searches. It certainly helps towards objective items, but consider that several items don't fit (CE magboots, RD suit) and some traitors don't get steal objectives at all.

I also listed alternate ideas to break reliance on the storage implanter.

[Mixelz]

I argue the main problem of the storage implant is the same as all other implants. Being that. from the perspective of anyone but the implantee, there is quite literally no way to know that the implant is even there at all without first seeing a used implanter.

I think these changes would be a good temporary solution until better measures are implemented to allow discernment between implanters as an outsider, such as a Contraband Scanner COUGH or simply giving the labels generic type A/B/C groupings (Something I have also suggested repeatedly and plan to submit a PR for soon).

Honestly, another step in the process would be just the "meta" evolving into sec strategy starting implant checks with a Storage check due to it having a 90% pick rate. But that's more community play behavior more than something that can be directly controlled through a PR merge.

[ArtisticRoomba]

consider that several items don't fit (CE magboots, RD suit)

What?

[ScarKy0]

Also as it was mentioned above. This will absolutely gut the Anatomy Kit for thief.

I believe before we nerf the implant we should have thieves start with the "folded smuggler's satchel" that acts exactly like the toolbox, but contains all the items inside of it and turns into a regular smuggler satchel on use.

[ScarKy0]

What?

Ok so I was right. We gotta limit the size.

[iaada]

Limiting size feels like a good way to go. It's intuitive enough that a storage inside your body doesn't have much of an opening for big items.

[Admiral-Obvious-001]

I don't think it needs a blacklist, just shrinking the size to 1x2 would mean you now have to actively decide wether or not to keep the used implanter after you steal the CMO hypospray (which would probably be the only objective that actually fits).

[Djungelskog2]

I don't think it needs a blacklist, just shrinking the size to 1x2 would mean you now have to actively decide wether or not to keep the used implanter after you steal the CMO hypospray (which would probably be the only objective that actually fits).

yea when suggesting this It was only the size nerf, not the blacklist
Id probably seperate them into different PR's (1x2 and minor size nerf w blacklist (theres no way its getting away with JUST a blacklist))

[K-Dynamic]

I don't think it needs a blacklist, just shrinking the size to 1x2 would mean you now have to actively decide wether or not to keep the used implanter after you steal the CMO hypospray (which would probably be the only objective that actually fits).

If it was 2x2 or 2x3 it would still apply since you're dedicating 50% or 33% to hiding the implant itself. You wouldn't be able to keep other gadgets or objective items without compromising on where else to put the implanter.

1x2 feels too heavy-handed unless we're reworking the item as a whole rather than tuning its stats.

[Killerqu00]

blacklist bad
size nerf good (although i would personally playtest 2x2 first)

[SlamBamActionman]

The values I wanted to try is making it 2x3 for 6TC, while also not allowing steal objectives.
And if it is not already the case, the size of items that can fit in the implanter should be <=Small only

Limiting it to small objects in code is imo less fun than limiting it to small objects in the UI; Make it 1x2, 1x2, 1x2! 😄

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I think 1x2 might be too small; right now as a Thief you want to keep the two implanters, your gloves and some other bundle item (doormag) in there until you can get rid of the implanters, at which point it opens up for objective items.

Syndies tend to be able to concentrate their TC into fewer high-value items, but also that includes the cost of the storage itself. The point of the storage is to get a free pass on random searches so it'd be poor value if you still end up losing one of your high-value purchases.

Since the blacklist is a bit hard to communicate, and you definitely do not want to find out it won't work the moment you are pulling the heist, how about an alternative way to discourage objective items:
Having a high-value objective item inside of your storage implant causes a negative effect to the player. This could be having a 2% to puke, or maybe a minor poison (or maybe cellular? 👀) damage buildup. When inserting an objective item inside the implant you get a pop-up that says "Inserting X into your storage implant makes you nauseous.... Remove it as soon as possible to avoid injury." in a similar way anomaly infections do it.

[ScarKy0]

Limiting it to small objects in code is imo less fun than limiting it to small objects in the UI; Make it 1x2, 1x2, 1x2! 😄
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Tbh I really like this idea

[beck-thompson]

I think most players disagree, as seen by the reactions to this PR. Or at the very least, it seems opinions are very split. Also, fun is a bit of a subjective thing here.

This is why balancing PRs are so tough, the times I talked about this in the discord everyone was on board with the sickness idea! Every single person has slightly different ideas about the storage implant, but from everything I see, the majority of players do not like it in its current state for one reason or another.

Its already really expensive, I don't think this is the right solution.

You misunderstood! I mean to decrease the price in addition to these changes.

This item, to me, feels like a necessary evil. People want to win, they want to greentext. This item is not the problem, its the solution. If you want people to use other means, maybe make the other means more appealing instead of making the necessary evil a lot worse. I've said in other posts, as have others, that hiding the item on the station can be unreliable. If I want to spend the large TC cost to get a storage implant to guarantee the item I worked so hard for can't be reclaimed, I think that's a totally fair thing to do.

Yeah I agree with all of this! I just don't think that basically forcing syndicate players to buy a storage implant to "lock" in their objective is a good idea. My other potential plan was to give the implant for free for steal objectives - then traitors could actually spend their TC on interesting things instead of ALWAYS buying the thieving glove + storage implant combo with the majority of their TC. (Also this is NOT a joke or sarcastic, I think this could totally work as a possible change.)

Another idea would be to give them a free item to "bluespace" the objective off station (I don't know the specifics but maybe after you insert the item after 10 minutes it bluespaces away or something?). You could also potentially allow the station to re-buy the bluespaced items for ransom money! Some people have had issues as this would be permanently RRing the objective, but from what I see now that is essentially already the case with storage implants.

Please, if you have any other ideas let me know!

[beck-thompson]

Also again as a reminder for everyone: This is a TEST merge! It will 100% be reverted after 2 weeks and I'll gather more feedback to see how everyone feels and also look at the statistics to see how it changes the completion rate of objectives.

[keronshb]

Also again as a reminder for everyone: This is a TEST merge! It will 100% be reverted after 2 weeks and I'll gather more feedback to see how everyone feels and also look at the statistics to see how it changes the completion rate of objectives.

The PRs should be separated. One is storage, the other is the test merge. They shouldn't be shipping at the same time at all.

[beck-thompson]

The PRs should be separated. One is storage, the other is the test merge. They shouldn't be shipping at the same time at all.

I felt like it was the same thing honestly just a balance change to the storage implant

[keronshb]

The PRs should be separated. One is storage, the other is the test merge. They shouldn't be shipping at the same time at all.

I felt like it was the same thing honestly just a balance change to the storage implant

They definitely need to be split up.

Storage implants were shadowbuffed and no one really brought it up until recently. That absolutely has to change since it got an unintended balance pass.

The extra code, to induce health issues, is a completely different balance change.

[beck-thompson]

They definitely need to be split up.

Storage implants were shadowbuffed and no one really brought it up until recently. That absolutely has to change since it got an unintended balance pass.

The extra code, to induce health issues, is a completely different balance change.

I feel like at this point it isn't really a "shadowbuff" if its been in the game for so long (Although you are right!) - the entire thing needs to be updated at once and splitting it up will just make things more confusing

[keronshb]

They definitely need to be split up.

Storage implants were shadowbuffed and no one really brought it up until recently. That absolutely has to change since it got an unintended balance pass.

The extra code, to induce health issues, is a completely different balance change.

I feel like at this point it isn't really a "shadowbuff" if its been in the game for so long (Although you are right!) - the entire thing needs to be updated at once and splitting it up will just make things more confusing

It has been but it doesn't change the fact that this 100% needs to be split up. I'm not changing my stance on this.

[PicklOH]

This is why balancing PRs are so tough, the times I talked about this in the discord everyone was on board with the sickness idea! Every single person has slightly different ideas about the storage implant, but from everything I see, the majority of players do not like it in its current state for one reason or another.

If its this divisive then perhaps it be put to a community poll like those MRP rules changes recently?

You misunderstood! I mean to decrease the price in addition to these changes.

Fair enough.

Yeah I agree with all of this! I just don't think that basically forcing syndicate players to buy a storage implant to "lock" in their objective is a good idea. My other potential plan was to give the implant for free for steal objectives - then traitors could actually spend their TC on interesting things instead of ALWAYS buying the thieving glove + storage implant combo with the majority of their TC. (Also this is NOT a joke or sarcastic, I think this could totally work as a possible change.)

If you agree that the problem is that there are not enough other options for players to use to hide their objective, then why make a PR that hurts the only solution rather than putting that effort into thinking of new solutions? Your other idea seems crazy to me, that would be like giving only some syndies a huge TC buff, but I can see you are genuinely trying to solve the problem. That's why I am so confused that this is all you could come up with.

Another idea would be to give them a free item to "bluespace" the objective off station (I don't know the specifics but maybe after you insert the item after 10 minutes it bluespaces away or something?). You could also potentially allow the station to re-buy the bluespaced items for ransom money! Some people have had issues as this would be permanently RRing the objective, but from what I see now that is essentially already the case with storage implants.

I like that idea more than this one tbh. Maybe make a new PR that adds in a Bluespace thingy without nerfing the storage implant? Then you can be really really sure because it is RR instead of being in an implant that Sec can discover and maybe take out.

Please, if you have any other ideas let me know!

A traitor only quantum spin inverter to teleport out of a sticky situation, or to teleport a bag its in to the other one.

[keronshb]

I like that idea more than this one tbh. Maybe make a new PR that adds in a Bluespace thingy without nerfing the storage implant? Then you can be really really sure because it is RR instead of being in an implant that Sec can discover and maybe take out.

There's a bluespace compressor that exists on SS13 which makes items smaller, with limited charges. So in theory you can make a hardsuit go from too big to being able to fit in your pocket, but it takes up most of the charges to use it on a singular item.

[Djungelskog2]

This is why balancing PRs are so tough, the times I talked about this in the discord everyone was on board with the sickness idea! Every single person has slightly different ideas about the storage implant, but from everything I see, the majority of players do not like it in its current state for one reason or another.

If its this divisive then perhaps it be put to a community poll like those MRP rules changes recently?

Lots of the player base plays antags and the minority would benefit from it, which would have heavy bias (already shown in this thread)

Yeah I agree with all of this! I just don't think that basically forcing syndicate players to buy a storage implant to "lock" in their objective is a good idea. My other potential plan was to give the implant for free for steal objectives - then traitors could actually spend their TC on interesting things instead of ALWAYS buying the thieving glove + storage implant combo with the majority of their TC. (Also this is NOT a joke or sarcastic, I think this could totally work as a possible change.)

If you agree that the problem is that there are not enough other options for players to use to hide their objective, then why make a PR that hurts the only solution rather than putting that effort into thinking of new solutions? Your other idea seems crazy to me, that would be like giving only some syndies a huge TC buff, but I can see you are genuinely trying to solve the problem. That's why I am so confused that this is all you could come up with.

Are you asking for powercreep? I don't think I understand. Smuggler stashes were just recently added if you mean something like that

[PicklOH]

Lots of the player base plays antags and the minority would benefit from it, which would have heavy bias (already shown in this thread)

Yeah shouldn't each side have representation? I don't understand this take. If you are saying that a majority of players would disagree with this, then why do it? On the flipside I play a ton of Sec and I see no problems with the storage implant.

Are you asking for powercreep? I don't think I understand. Smuggler stashes were just recently added if you mean something like that

I'm asking why the the idea here is to nerf the one good solution rather than coming up with new ones, like the smuggler stash pack. Smuggler stash is a step in the right direction, we just need more options.

[Djungelskog2]

Lots of the player base plays antags and the minority would benefit from it, which would have heavy bias (already shown in this thread)

Yeah shouldn't each side have representation? I don't understand this take. If you are saying that a majority of players would disagree with this, then why do it? On the flipside I play a ton of Sec and I see no problems with the storage implant.

Are you asking for powercreep? I don't think I understand. Smuggler stashes were just recently added if you mean something like that

I'm asking why the the idea here is to nerf the one good solution rather than coming up with new ones, like the smuggler stash pack. Smuggler stash is a step in the right direction, we just need more options.

Firstly, imagine how many antag players there are in comparison to sec. This is because the "fun" is heavily lopsided in favour of antags against crew and especially sec, or any other parties that it would involve.

Secondly, storage implanter is still way more (too) powerful that without nerfs itl always be a balance concern

[beck-thompson]

If you agree that the problem is that there are not enough other options for players to use to hide their objective, then why make a PR that hurts the only solution rather than putting that effort into thinking of new solutions? Your other idea seems crazy to me, that would be like giving only some syndies a huge TC buff, but I can see you are genuinely trying to solve the problem. That's why I am so confused that this is all you could come up with.

The reason I did this pr in particular is delta did it and it worked quite well! It solved the issue of everyone buy storage implants and having the objectives effectively round removed. Also, for giving all steal objective syndicates a storage implant, it would be a very nerfed version (probably only a 2x1) - yeah it would be a TC buff for them but It would be more intresting than always sinking a large amount tc every round into storage implants.

[SlamBamActionman]

Heyo! After a discussion within the maintainer team we've reached the following conclusion:

The storage implant should be nerfed, but there was no consensus on what functionality would have the most impact. Since the implant was shadowbuffed when gridinventory was introduced by increasing the storage size, the choice was made to split this PR up in two parts and monitor the effects of merging a storage size reduction first. We'll return in about a month's time and reevaluate the change, and if necessary look at some sort of blacklist or similar solution for objective items.

As per the author's request, this PR will remain as the blacklist PR, and a new PR will be opened targetting storage size. Maintainers decided upon 2x L-shape = L⅂ = 6 slots which had unanimous approval.

[github-actions]

This pull request has conflicts, please resolve those before we can evaluate the pull request.

[SpeltIncorrectyl]

Unless this nerf will stop the thieving gloves + storage implant meta, it won't fix anything.
I think we should just remove the storage implant.

The point of antagonists is to disrupt the round. It is ironic that the traitor meta literally disrupts the round as little as possible. The thief gloves let you steal off someone without them noticing. No interesting murder or any confrontation of any kind. But atleast there is gameplay for other people created here! Now that an item has been stolen, sec must track down who took it. But here we run into our second friend, the storage implant. The whole point of the storage implant is to stop sec from finding what you took. CMO had hypospray stolen, let's mass search medical. Nuh-uh, you can't mass implant check people.

The storage implant is such a shit item, it causes massive LOOC rows whenever it's used. Admins constantly have to write rules to stop it from being metagamed. It is boring and uninteresting to play with or against. Making it smaller won't fix this.

[kosticia]

Now based. Thanks.

[walksanatora]

The point of antagonists is to disrupt the round.

yeah but is stealing the CMOs hypo really disrupting the round? stealing cap ID will cause chaos. not unless you are taking it off the cap directly (bad idea for many reasons even pre-nerf). all the steal objectives for traitors are inconvient for the crew in person. but it does not cause station ending chaos. (now if stealing the nuke disk had a follow up objective of arming the nuke... yeah that will cause alof of chaos and be a major disruption)

Nuh-uh, you can't mass implant check people.

thats why heads need to have basic spatial awareness and watch their pockets so that they can give sec pointers on who could be nearby. all this does is remove skill issues from heads with no bonuses to traitors. also if I throw a stolen item into a dorms you would be suprised how little it gets checked. 2x1 item? (it fits in a storage implant post-nerf) congrats you can cut open a lizard plush. I doubt sec will be checking all your plushies for contraband just cause they got a stolen report.

[walksanatora]

also again. THE RULES AGAINST METAGAMING IT ARE GONE.
stop trying to beat a dead horse.