Removes storage implant

[SpeltIncorrectyl]

About the PR

The storage implant has been removed from the game. It is no longer in the traitor uplink or the thief chemistry kit.

Why / Balance

The point of antagonists is to disrupt the round and make it interesting. It is ironic that the traitor meta literally disrupts the round as little as possible. The thief gloves let you steal off someone without them noticing. No interesting murder or any confrontation of any kind. But atleast there is gameplay for other people created here! Now that an item has been stolen, sec must track down who took it. But here we run into our second friend, the storage implant.

Let's do a walkthrough of the storage implant + thief gloves meta from the point of view of an antagonist

be me, urist mc traitor
buy thief gloves and storage implanter
inject the implant and leave it in maints somewhere, don't bother scrubbing it with soap
random secoff says 'i'm suspicious', search me, they find nothing
steal the CMO's hypospray with my thieving gloves
put it in my storage implant
wait for evac
secoff mass searching people
'no problem, officer'
they search me, find nothing
greentext

Kinda boring, right?

Now lets look at the same thing from sec's perspective.

be sec
find syndicate implant in maints
have det scan it, it was used by urist mc traitor
oknowwhat.jpeg. You can't remove it if you don't know what it is. Some people decide to arrest the dude for syndie contra, counting the implant inside of them as the contra - but then still can't remove it. Most of the time you just search the dude and move on.
Search urist mc traitor. He is obviously wearing thieving gloves, but you can't do anything cause that would be ❌METAGAMING❌. So you let the guy go. You probably should give him brig time for having the implant in his body but you will have to put up with him rules lawyering you and whining, saying shitsec is arresting him despite not possessing any contra. Besides it's futile, he will still have the implant.
wait
cmo says their hypospray has been stolen
start searching people, trying to find it. follow leads but come up with nothing

I actually don't know if you are allowed to implant check a guy who has an implant for a storage implant because something is missing. The guy you try and search will tell you are not, in LOOC of course. The rules are a mess.

Man that sucks. You have to tiptoe around the metashield and end up doing nothing. Sucks that syndicate implanters don't have labels but that has been vetoed for some reason.

Let's look at it from the CMO's perspective

be cmo
hypospray disappears
tell sec
never get it back

Is your round disrupted? Is it interesting?

The storage implanter + thieving gloves meta needs to be removed. #36272 has nerfed the size, but since you can still steal grand theft objectives off people and store them in the implant, the problem is not fixed and the meta is still alive and well. The nerf only stops the CE magboots and digiboard from being stored, most grand theft items are quite small and still fit. If you have an idea that will stop the meta then I will happily change my tune and advocate for that instead of the admittedly crazy idea of just straight up removing the storage implanter. But I don't think there is one.

The storage implanter just sucks. It causes massive LOOC rows whenever it's used. Admins constantly have to write rules to stop it from being metagamed. It is boring and uninteresting to play with or against.

Technical details

• removed listing for storage implant from traitor uplink
• removed storage implant from thief chemistry kit
• changed thief chemistry kit translation, no longer mentions the storage implant

Media

The traitor uplink, implants section
The storage implant is missing

The thief toolbox, anatomy kit listing
The storage implant is missing

The thief toolbox, with anatomy kit redeemed
There is no storage implant

Requirements

• [X ] I have read and am following the Pull Request and Changelog Guidelines.
• [ X] I have added media to this PR or it does not require an ingame showcase.

Breaking changes

Changelog

🆑

• remove: The storage implant has been removed

[SpeltIncorrectyl]

Stealing something important with thief gloves is disrupting a round. I dont know how you came to the conclusion that it doesnt.

Yeah but it doesn't make it interesting. If sec can't track them down then it's no different from the item disappearing.
I forsaw people talking about the 'isn't disrupted bit' so I specifically said 'disrupt and make it interesting'.

[K-Dynamic]

Has the 1x2 test merge even gone through yet?

[RedBookcase]

Tentatively in favor of this PR but should again state what I said on the discord - this does gut the Anatomy Kit quite badly and we should have something in place to address that, whether it be buffing it with some other item, removing it outright and making a new kit, etc.

[SpeltIncorrectyl]

Has the 1x2 test merge even gone through yet?

I don't believe so. It's been merged but I don't think it's in the game yet.

[SpeltIncorrectyl]

Has the 1x2 test merge even gone through yet?

It was changed to be two Ls, and was merged.
It wasn't test merged, it was properly merged.

[SpeltIncorrectyl]

Tentatively in favor of this PR but should again state what I said on the discord - this does gut the Anatomy Kit quite badly and we should have something in place to address that, whether it be buffing it with some other item, removing it outright and making a new kit, etc.

Yeah, I am looking for suggestions for it.
This probably won't get merged until this is addressed.
I think we should just remove it and add the DNA scrambler and drug to something else.

[RedBookcase]

Yeah, I am looking for suggestions for it. This probably won't get merged until this is addressed. I think we should just remove it and add the DNA scrambler and drug to something else.

Could probably merge it into the sleepytime kit pretty easily.

[Admiral-Obvious-001]

I remember accidentally stealing the digiboard as an admin one shift. Nobody bothered to try anything because everyone assumed "thief gloves, storage implant".

I did put the board back onto the QM, but the damage of the implant even existing was done.

[beck-thompson]

1.) I think we should probably see how the decreased storage plays out (Although I do agree, I don't think it will change anything)
2.) I also think there might be some more interesting ways to nerf the implant without completely removing it! See #36145

[ScarKy0]

People really forgot traitors used to be stealth antags huh

Anyways. We currently have a plan for figuring out the storage implant, as well as an overall implant rework. I am heavily against this PR as it gives "Removed X pending rework" vibes.
Currently we did lower the storage, but we also are looking into setting up a blacklist for objective items as well as giving downsides for overusing implants.

I actually don't know if you are allowed to implant check a guy who has an implant for a storage implant because something is missing. The guy you try and search will tell you are not, in LOOC of course. The rules are a mess.

Metashield around implants has been removed. All you need is a suspicion an implant is in play. Just.dont be the guy to keep someone in security for 20 minutes while going down the implant list one-by-one.
It is really easy to remove something, but I am im favor of trying to fix the implant instead. We will be monitoring the use and apply changes as needed.

[metalgearsloth]

People really forgot traitors used to be stealth antags huh

In 13 it was mixed, lings were the same, to be fair.

Also at least try the changes before the removal, saying this as someone who thinks storage should be removed.

[Dragonjspider]

Metashield around implants has been removed. All you need is a suspicion an implant is in play. Just.dont be the guy to keep someone in security for 20 minutes while going down the implant list one-by-one.
It is really easy to remove something, but I am im favor of trying to fix the implant instead. We will be monitoring the use and apply changes as needed.

I get the idea that all you need is suspicion, but how do you get any suspicion with a storage implant? I can only assume from the chameleon fibers from their gloves being all over them (which assumes they even used thief gloves), but I don't know any detectives who scan every single convicts stuff for those. (they probably should though to be honest)

[ScarKy0]

I get the idea that all you need is suspicion, but how do you get any suspicion with a storage implant? I can only assume from the chameleon fibers from their gloves being all over them (which assumes they even used thief gloves), but I don't know any detectives who scan every single convicts stuff for those. (they probably should though to be hones

As one of the examples given in the PR: You know someome used an implant, then an important item goes missing and you cannot find it. "Hmmmm... maybe that guy has it in a storage implant..."
They LOOC mald? Ahelp it.
They yell shitsec? Ahelp it.
You are in the right to check if you are suspicious. Just don't hold them in their cell for 20 minutes as you go down the implant list. Spacelaw was updated for this reason.

[walksanatora]

I am going to repeat what I said to other mald PRs. "if you know it is a storage implant. go check people." espically since the metashield was REMOVED. tell chem to prepare genetic chems cause you are going to "innoculate" the station and sweep for storage implants.

[kosticia]

Just leaving it there #36191

[Djungelskog2]

ok to anyone who thinks the genetic damage is something to just shrug off, that completely goes against the idea of the original PR to prevent metagaming and that argument alone implies that the changes were useless and the only real change was just REMOVING the rule rather than actually fixing anything

[Simyon264]

Hello internet people,

please remember that there is another person on the other side of the screen. Snarky remarks and off-topic comments will be hidden and will possibly lead to more moderation actions.

[Simyon264]

Imagine thinking this is a good move.

Don't. Snarky remark that is unnecessary.
@Murrytmds

[Princess-Cheeseballs]

I am going to repeat what I said to other mald PRs. "if you know it is a storage implant. go check people." espically since the metashield was REMOVED. tell chem to prepare genetic chems cause you are going to "innoculate" the station and sweep for storage implants.

This is literally not possible.

Phalanx has a metabolic speed of 0.1u/s with a healing of 0.3 genetic per unit so even if we pretend the radiation and caustic damage doesn't exist it would take 150 seconds to recover assuming you're using a full 15u syringe, (which would still leave some genetic leftover but we're doing this because of the second part).

Assuming you only have to check half the station before finding the implant because we're neither particularly unlucky nor particularly lucky you would need chem to make you 675u of phalanx, plus 170u of sigy, 170u of arith and 130u of bicar and nearly two hours of free time.

In addition, you'd have to apply the arith after using your phalanx because phalanx will deal additional caustic damage if you also have arith in your system increasing the time expenditure of sitting around waiting to heal by about 5 mins (still just under two hours).

I do not see this ever happening in a game between:

chem laughing their ass off at your costly request,
you having a 2 hour queue of people lining up to get implant checked (because this math doesn't account for the massive logistical requirement that is doing that many implant checks)
three absolutely nothing more important happening that would draw you away within the hours you're wasting implant checking people

[SiLiCoN141]

in the hypothesized scenario, why wouldnt urist mc traitor be the first person on secs mind after the hypospray was stolen and they had a implant

[Nimfar11]

Against it because it's a common enough and easy enough decision. I don't want to fix it or redo it to make it better, I'll just delete it, because it's easier for me. I think it's a bad decision.

[SlamBamActionman]

I think the storage implant works best is when it is used to avoid truly random searches: If you're on your way to medbay with an authentication disruptor to yoink CMO's cape from their office, but a SecOff stops you for a search because some random guy decided to throw C4 at HoP? That is where the storage implant should come in play. It should be insurance against being found out by accident and to me that seems like a valid usecase to spend your TC on.¹

The issue with the implant as it is currently is that even a SecOff putting in effort looking for a specific stolen item will have a hard time getting it. It's not random search insurance, it's just... search insurance. The evidence required for a SecOff to feel comfortable doing an implant check is high, which is good when the search is random but bad when there's active intent behind the search.

As such, I don't think the storage implant needs to go. Further tweaks? Yes, likely, and we're monitoring the recent changes on Vulture and will evaluate whether we need to do more once we have had time to gather more data. Personally I feel like some sort of blacklist for objective items (or other mechanic with similar effect) would be suitable but that's a discussion for another PR.

¹ If you say "Just don't get caught in random searches" then I would like to remind you that someone with a storage implant would be trading TC to get a pass for that specific scenario. If someone wants to safeguard against losing their PDA, they buy the uplink implant, same thing.

[K-Dynamic]

I think the storage implant works best is when it is used to avoid truly random searches: If you're on your way to medbay with an authentication disruptor to yoink CMO's cape from their office, but a SecOff stops you for a search because some random guy decided to throw C4 at HoP? That is where the storage implant should come in play. It should be insurance against being found out by accident and to me that seems like a valid usecase to spend your TC on.¹

The issue with the implant as it is currently is that even a SecOff putting in effort looking for a specific stolen item will have a hard time getting it. It's not random search insurance, it's just... search insurance. The evidence required for a SecOff to feel comfortable doing an implant check is high, which is good when the search is random but bad when there's active intent behind the search.

As such, I don't think the storage implant needs to go. Further tweaks? Yes, likely, and we're monitoring the recent changes on Vulture and will evaluate whether we need to do more once we have had time to gather more data. Personally I feel like some sort of blacklist for objective items (or other mechanic with similar effect) would be suitable but that's a discussion for another PR.

¹ If you say "Just don't get caught in random searches" then I would like to remind you that someone with a storage implant would be trading TC to get a pass for that specific scenario. If someone wants to safeguard against losing their PDA, they buy the uplink implant, same thing.

That's why I suggested side effects while you're using implants (in this case, zero side effects when empty, side effects that increase in frequency and severity when loaded or used). This would let you bypass normal searches but not let you use it as permanent storage.

[FairlySadPanda]

Remove it. It will be reworked during the BodySystem refactor alongside all other implants to work as an Organ.

See current proposals here
https://forum.spacestation14.com/t/request-for-comment-medcode-bodys-have-organs-bodypart-deletion/18628
https://forum.spacestation14.com/t/request-for-comment-medcode-strain-and-organs-cause-crit/18625

Problematic implants are not worth keeping in-game at the moment and it's worth shaking up the meta to encourage different strategies.

[youtissoum]

I think the storage implant works best is when it is used to avoid truly random searches: If you're on your way to medbay with an authentication disruptor to yoink CMO's cape from their office, but a SecOff stops you for a search because some random guy decided to throw C4 at HoP? That is where the storage implant should come in play. It should be insurance against being found out by accident and to me that seems like a valid usecase to spend your TC on.¹

I feel like it would be much better to just remove random searches from the game and require some reasoning for all searches on all alert levels so the storage implant would not be necessary anymore. I don't know what random searches are supposed to accomplish apart from making syndies need to spend almost half their TC just to not be found randomly. And I say this as a security main.

[deltanedas]

gib all sec roundstart to avoid being randomly searched

[FairlySadPanda]

Wawa. https://forum.spacestation14.com/t/request-for-comments-medcode-implants-are-organs/19166

[kosticia]

Still think that random searches are absolutely normal. If someone will want to steal CMO cape, he can just buy AD near CMO office OR try to play as real stealth antag(create plans, disguise oneself) instead of roleplaying as unopenable box of contraband.

[JackTalentedCoder]

This is too radical. It possible to simply make a blacklist for highrisk items, but not the removal of pretty usefull implant for syndie-buns

[keronshb]

We just made a balance adjustment for this.
Please give that time to settle in before making PRs like this.

[SpeltIncorrectyl]

We just made a balance adjustment for this.

Please give that time to settle in before making PRs like this.

Emogarbage advised me to do it now because it would take a while for anything to happen regardless.

I never expected it to be merged instantly.

[keronshb]

We just made a balance adjustment for this.
Please give that time to settle in before making PRs like this.

Emogarbage advised me to do it now because it would take a while for anything to happen regardless.

I never expected it to be merged instantly.

We're trying to cut down on the amount of active PRs at once, it's not sound advice.
And we're also trying to cut down on controversial PRs made to just "spark a discussion" because

1. It causes undue stress to everyone
2. Adds stress to our moderation team to moderate github

[SpeltIncorrectyl]

Many people are talking about just blacklisting objective items. I originally thought of this, but people in the design-discussion didn't like it because it is unintuitive and people have an aversion to inventory blacklists/whitelists in general. I spoke with Emogarbage and he preferred the solution of removing the implant. At least I think he did.

I would actually personally prefer to instead have the blacklist. I will probably make a pr for it later today.

[keronshb]

Many people are talking about just blacklisting objective items. I originally thought of this, but people in the design-discussion didn't like it because it is unintuitive and people have an aversion to inventory blacklists/whitelists in general. I spoke with Emogarbage and he preferred the solution of removing the implant. At least I think he did.

I would actually personally prefer to instead have the blacklist. I will probably make a pr for it later today.

Again, no.

We just merged a PR for balance. Let this sit for a month. I'm not asking.

#36145 There's a PR up for this already, with yet another controversial discussion.
We settled on making the storage implant smaller.

Let the balance actually have some time for effect before making another PR.