Is there an ATM at this bank?

[Groctel]

General

Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: atm=yes added to amenity=bank
Question asked: Is there an ATM at this bank?

Checklist

Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):

• 🚧 To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose
  • Note that the wiki specifies that this tag should be used to map where there isn't an atm. Some renderers like Organic Maps treat its absence as a negative.
• 🤔 Any answer the user can give must have an equivalent tagging (Quest should not reappear to other users when solved by one)
• 🐿️ Easily answerable by any pedestrian from the outside but a survey is necessary
• 💤 Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)
  • Possibly...? Depends on what you would categorise as spam. I wouldn't but I'm not familiar with earlier decisions in the project.
• 🕓 Applies to a reasonable number of map data (Worth the effort)

Ideas for implementation

Element selection: Any bank with unspecified atm presence.

Metadata needed:

Proposed UI: Added as an aditional quest for banks. Simple stuff :)

[Groctel]

Note that this is just for discussion, not for requesting. I intend to write the quest myself if we agree on the specifics.

[HolgerJeromin]

I find separate atm nodes much more useful. At least the opening hours are different.

[matkoniecz]

Definitely, we have overlay for mapping these.

The question is - would it be valuable to ask about situation to tag that as a property of a bank? I am not really sure.

[Cj-Malone]

40% already have it, so some people must find it useful. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=bank#combinations

[matkoniecz]

40% already have it, so some people must find it useful. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=bank#combinations

I would not assume that something is useful just because it is tagged

for better or worse there are some things widely tagged of quite minimal if any use

[Groctel]

From amenity=atm

Note that ATMs located in or near bank branches may be tagged as amenity=bank with atm=yes. If the bank and the ATM have different opening hours, it might be worth to use amenity=atm instead.

There's a detail tradeoff for each mapping strategy. I personally think that atm=yes is easier to map and browse as it requires adding a tag to an already existing bank vs adding a new node.

If you prefer adding a separate node, I don't know if StreetComplete would be able to he a quest add a new node with tags inferred from a nearby one? It would be neat to say "yes, there's an atm" and place it next to the bank with the operator tags already in place. That's an engine tastsk and not a quest addition though.

If the app cannot do it yet, I think it would be good for the map to add the tag inside the banks and, when that's added, create a quest to separate the entities.

This is completely anecdotal, but the reason why I thought to add this task is that I'm considering changing banks and I'm filtering by affice and atm availability. Selecting an office and parsing the atm tag is simpler than searching for nearby nodes after finding a bank.

[mcliquid]

Do banks (amenity=bank not office=financial) really exist that don't have an ATM?

This may be a very European question, but I have never come across a bank branch that doesn't have an ATM.
Ages ago, you could still withdraw money at the bank counter, have the amount written on a transfer slip, and then pick it up at the checkout. Many years ago, the manned checkout was abolished and the transfer slip gave way to a one-time-use cheque card for withdrawing money at an ATM. Now, you can only get your money at an ATM.

That's why I don't know of any bank around me, and I'm not sure what their purpose would be, that doesn't even have an ATM. What services would I get at a bank like that?

At least in Europe, I would say that would be considered spammy ("Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)")

[HolgerJeromin]

Do banks (amenity=bank not office=financial) really exist that don't have an ATM?

With overpass turbo I found some fishy entries (insurance agent, Germans central bank) but also some which looked valid.
But yes: could be spammy...

[matkoniecz]

That's why I don't know of any bank around me, and I'm not sure what their purpose would be, that doesn't even have an ATM. What services would I get at a bank like that?

to push loans and expensive not needed financial services (which may also include loans)

sometime do some minor services like setup account

but unable to do anything with cash and typically no ATM

it may be debatable is it still bank, but I seen box in a middle of mall concourse, with laptop and single person inside tagged as a bank

https://www.galeriaecho.pl/pl/zakupy/12,uslugi/340,ing_express

[mcliquid]

to push loans and expensive not needed financial services (which may also include loans)

sometime do some minor services like setup account

but unable to do anything with cash and typically no ATM

Can you still call it a amenity = bank? I think the wiki expresses is clearly:

a financial establishment where customers can, among other services, deposit and withdraw money, take loans, make investments and transfer funds. This definition encompasses banks, credit unions, building societies, and other similar establishments. It does not include money lenders (use shop=money_lender) or financial offices that are not banks (use office=financial).

In other words, is a place that doesn't process money really a bank? Or rather a consultancy or something similar? e.g. office=finance or office=consulting + consulting=finance.

Anyway - slightly offtopic - I would vote in favour of limiting this quest to individual countries where it might make sense, but not in Germany and Austria in my view.

[matkoniecz]

In other words, is a place that doesn't process money really a bank?

As I understand, some (most?) banks in Sweden are trying to get in that direction and some did.

(and office=finance has traditional problem of all office= values: it is used both for ones that entirely about processing walk-in customers and internal offices that are entirely closed to visitors)

[Groctel]

I'm from Spain and, to be honest, I hadn't really noticed that there are very few if not no banks without an available atm. I agree that it can be spammy in some or most European countries, but it may be useful for other places. I would still enable it for me to fill for the reasons I said yesterday.

If places that are not actual banks but bank offices are also being mapped as banks, I think it could be useful to mark them as atm=no as well :)

[mnalis]

TL;DR: it might be useful (especially with other answer of it is not actually a bank...)

In my experience (Croatia) it is also quite rare, but not unheard of. Most of those not having ATM are usually combined with bank offices (i.e. inside an building=office) not on the ground floor, and I'd wager most of the bank customers there are business ones, or private ones going for things that are not everyday -- opening a credit line or the like. You can however both deposit and withdraw cash there and do all other banking activities (provided you're willing to wait enough, as processing customers usually takes quite a long time due to things they usually do there).

Taginfo say that globally about 4.51% of atm tags are atm=no.

If places that are not actual banks but bank offices are also being mapped as banks

That would actually be useful side of the quest, to have Uh... answer of It's not a bank, but other financial office (and also of course option to leave Note for even more unclear cases). So it would additionally act as a cleanup of other things mistagged as banks...

Regardless of whether the quest is accepted, I'd still recommend people tag ATMs additionally as amenity=atm at their precise location via "Things overlay" in StreetComplete (depending on you country state in NSI, you can also search by bank name and add its ATM with all of the identifying information at once, which is quite nice).

[meiphoo7-Mae]

In the Netherlands there are several (smaller) banks that don't own ATMs.
Also the "big" banks technically don't have ATMs anymore because they've established a separate entity (including a separate brand) that owns and manages ATMs. The "big" banks tend to close real bank offices and open what they call 'stores'. Those stores provide certain services but don't necessarily provide an ATM, but if available the ATM is managed by the separate entity.
So AFAIK in the Netherlands no bank actually owns ATMs, it always belongs to a separate entity if there's one.
Therefore in the Netherlands it is always necessary to tag ATMs as an amenity.

[matkoniecz]

So AFAIK in the Netherlands no bank actually owns ATMs, it always belongs to a separate entity if there's one.

note that atm= is for whether there is ATM at bank, it does not matter whether it is operated by bank, unrelated company or subcompany in part or fully controlled by this bank

[meiphoo7-Mae]

note that atm= is for whether there is ATM at bank, it does not matter whether it is operated by bank, unrelated company or subcompany in part or fully controlled by this bank

Well, then I don't understand certain details of this subject apparently.
As noted before by you, @matkoniecz, and also by @HolgerJeromin there's already an overlay for ATMs.
What I understand from the request is that this request more or less automatically assumes that if there is an ATM at the bank, this ATM is owned by the bank. I've pointed out that at least in the Netherlands this is not necessarily the case.
The proposal states: "Added as an aditional quest for banks". (emphasis added by me).

Also, at least in the Netherlands, there are ATMs in shops (those owned by banks but also in other shops), supermarkets, certain fuel stations and several other places.

If there's a different use case for this request I guess I need a bit more explanation because I don't see how it is different from what can be done with the existing overlay.

[Groctel]

@meiphoo7-Mae: Unless I haven't found it, there's not an overlay for ATMs. It's easy to set one up, though, which I believe it's what they mean. For this discussion's case: amenity=bank and !atm.

Also yes, my assumption was that the ATM would be operated by the bank which atm=yes is being added to. My belief (correct me if I'm wrong) is that ATMs are a typical feature of banks, but not so much of other kinds of places. To me, it makes sense to ask for the presence of ATMs in banks because that's the place where you would first think to look for one.

I think there are two avenues that we should consider for this discussion:

• Whether atm=yes should be added to amenity=bank nodes or amenity=atm nodes should be added close to the latter.
• Whether it's worth it to add a quest that asks the user to add atm=yes to amenity=bank nodes.

Regarding the first, it may be a discussion worth bringing up with the global OSM community to reach a consensus. As it stands now, both solutions are correct. In my opinion, adding separate amenity=atm nodes is more involved than adding atm=yes to amenity=bank nodes, so I think adding the tag would make it easier to contribute this data than adding a node. Additionally, a searching algorithm doesn't need to search for nearby ATM nodes if it wants to gather this information.

Now, regarding whether adding a quest is worth the effort, I think we have some cases:

Bank-owned ATM?	Separate ATM node?	Should add a quest?
Yes	Yes	Possibly? [1]
Yes	No	Yes
No	Yes	Possibly? [2]
No	No	No

• [1]: This depends on how you deal with redundant data. If there is an ATM in the bank, be it inside our outside the bank office, adding atm=yes is accurate with reality. As I said earlier, I think this also makes it easier to query banks with an ATM.
• [2]: As with [1], this is accurate with reality. Even if the ATM is not operated by the bank, I believe that the tag should be added to reflect that one can access it in that place. However, this may also need introducing a question like Is the ATM in this bank operated by this bank?

There's the case that @mnalis pointed out: Using Uh... to answer It's not a bank, but other financial office. This answer would be good if the place being surveyed is not actually a bank. It could be added to other bank-related quests as well. IMO, I think adding the quest is worth it, but it depends on the project's policy with redundant data (atm tags and nodes).

[mnalis]

Unless I haven't found it, there's not an overlay for ATMs. It's easy to set one up, though, which I believe it's what they mean.

There is an already existing overlay called "Things overlay", which (among many other things) displays ATMs (amenity=atm) and allows for their repositioning, removing and adding of ATMs which are not currently mapped. (and, after new ATM is added, extra quests will pop-up for it automatically, which is extra benefit)

My belief (correct me if I'm wrong) is that ATMs are a typical feature of banks, but not so much of other kinds of places

It might be a country thing. For example, in Croatia you'd be very likely to find one (or more) at any shop=mall or shop=supermarket, and not only amenity=bank. Less surely but also often, it might be on/near amenity=bus_station, amenity=post_office or amenity=fuel. Other countries (USA?) might have it on even wider selection on shop=* and other keys.

In my opinion, adding separate amenity=atm nodes is more involved than adding atm=yes to amenity=bank nodes

It is a little more involved (although not that much, especially if you're using StreetComplete), but it also provides much more utility (e.g. precise location, ability to add multiple ATMs, each with different attributes, etc).

• Whether atm=yes should be added to amenity=bank nodes or amenity=atm nodes should be added close to the latter.

That is not either/or, however - you can do the former, or the latter, or both, or neither. I'd suggest at least the latter, but preferably both.

• Whether it's worth it to add a quest that asks the user to add atm=yes to amenity=bank nodes.

I'd say yes, although not overwhelmingly so (given that ATM nodes can already be added manually).

[mnalis]

Also, gaining a new code contributor (as @Groctel offered to do the quest themselves) might help long-term even more; while there are no strings attached of course, some people are likely to stick to the projects where they previously contributed 🥰

[Groctel]

Hey! Sorry for taking too long to respond.

I knew about Things; from what you said earlier it sounded like there was a more specific overlay preset. Also, I agree that the benefits of adding ATM nodes outweigh the process.

I'd suggest at least the latter, but preferably both.

I agree! As I said much earlier, it would be nice to have quests to create nodes close to entities, but that's a very different implementation task.

I'd say yes, although not overwhelmingly so (given that ATM nodes can already be added manually).

Or maybe add a note to bank quests for the user to check if there are unmapped ATMS...? I'm starting to think that adding atm=* may not be the best way to approach this issue. Not that it wouldn't be beneficial to the map, I still believe that, but if we add the ATM nodes then we wouldn't have issues with information duplication.

It might be a country thing.

I'm learning that every country is different in where ATMs are typically located. Maybe asking for ATMs only in banks is too restrictive for the general case? On the contrary, asking for almost every location would be too much. The question here is where to put the middle term, which seems that would be both not enough for some countries and too spammy for others.

Given this, unless someone comes with a strong position in favour of this PR, I think it would be best to leave it as-is. Still, discussing with you guys is being an absolute pleasure. Even if I don't end up sending a PR from this issue, I'll be sure to come back when I have more proposals!