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Agenda for 2024-10-09 CG meeting (#688)
* Agenda for 2024-10-09 CG meeting * Updated meeting minutes * Update meetings/2024-10-09.md Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]> * Update meetings/2024-10-09.md Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]> * Update meetings/2024-10-09.md Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]> * Update meetings/2024-10-09.md Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]> * Update meetings/2024-10-09.md Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]> * Update meetings/2024-10-09.md Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]> * Update meetings/2024-10-09.md Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]> * Update meetings/2024-10-09.md Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]> * Update meetings/2024-10-09.md Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]> * Update meetings/2024-10-09.md Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]> --------- Co-authored-by: Hadrian Zbarcea <[email protected]> Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <[email protected]>
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| # W3C Solid Community Group: Weekly | ||
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| * Date: 2024-10-09T14:00:00Z | ||
| * Call: https://meet.jit.si/solid-cg | ||
| * Chat: https://matrix.to/#/#solid_specification:gitter.im | ||
| * Repository: https://github.com/solid/specification | ||
| * Status: Published | ||
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| ## Present | ||
| * Hadrian Zbarcea | ||
| * [elf Pavlik](https://elf-pavlik.hackers4peace.net) | ||
| * Niko from NextGraph.org | ||
| * Tim Berners-Lee | ||
| * Grace | ||
| * [Rahul Gupta](https://cxres.pages.dev/profile#i) | ||
| * Jesse Wright | ||
| * Damon | ||
| * [Michal](https://id.mrkvon.org) | ||
| * Rui Zhao | ||
| * [Matthias Evering](https://solidweb.me/testpro/) | ||
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| --- | ||
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| ## Announcements | ||
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| ### Meeting Guidelines | ||
| * [W3C Solid Community Group Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/cg/solid/calendar). | ||
| * [W3C Solid Community Group Meeting Guidelines](https://github.com/w3c-cg/solid/blob/main/meetings/README.md). | ||
| * No audio or video recording, or automated transcripts without consent. Meetings are transcribed and made public. If consent is withheld by anyone, recording/retention must not occur. | ||
| * Join queue to talk. | ||
| * Topics can be proposed at the bottom of the agenda to be discussed as time allows. Make it known if a topic is urgent or cannot be postponed. | ||
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| ### Participation and Code of Conduct | ||
| * [Join the W3C Solid Community Group](https://www.w3.org/community/solid/join), [W3C Account Request](http://www.w3.org/accounts/request), [W3C Community Contributor License Agreement](https://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/cla/) | ||
| * [Solid Code of Conduct](https://github.com/solid/process/blob/main/code-of-conduct.md), [Positive Work Environment at W3C: Code of Conduct](https://www.w3.org/policies/code-of-conduct/) | ||
| * Operating principle for effective participation is to allow access across disabilities, across country borders, and across time. Feedback on tooling and meeting timing is welcome. | ||
| * If this is your first time, welcome! please introduce yourself. | ||
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| ### Scribes | ||
| * [elf Pavlik](https://elf-pavlik.hackers4peace.net) | ||
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| ### Introductions | ||
| * Niko: Developer of NextGraph, based on semantic web. Local-first and end-to-end encrypted. | ||
| * Damon: Co founder of WeDistribute, indymedia org, covering decentralized social tech. Lead project manager behind memory project, building on top of ActivityPods. | ||
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| --- | ||
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| ## Topics | ||
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| ### NextGraph overview | ||
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| URL: https://docs.nextgraph.org/en/introduction/ | ||
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| * eP: Niko who is developing NextGraph will give 15-20min presentation | ||
| * Niko: presenting slides and demo | ||
| * ...: Peer to Peer semantic web collaboration | ||
| * ...: NextGraph is doing the same as Solid but differently | ||
| * ...: RDF, Linked Data, SPARQL | ||
| * ...: Local-first CRDT of RDF — you can edit offline and data gets synchronized once you get online and without conflicts. I developed CRDTs for RDF, there are already formats for JSON. I added compatibility with automerge and yjs. This way one can mix all kinds of data. | ||
| * ...: end-to-end encrypted | ||
| * ...: decentralized — 2 tier. Not peer-to-peer; we have servers which act as brokers. It is based on pub/sub where replicas subscribe. All the changes are propageted. Brokers are constantly exchanging updates in anticipation of the devices that subscribe to them. Local replica offers SPARQL locally to the applications. | ||
| * ...: also binary data | ||
| * ...: we have an app mobile, desktop and web — alpha | ||
| * ...: a framework soon, Rust/JS&TS/Svelte | ||
| * ...: a new protocol (binary) not using HTTP, no domain names and certs, also for efficiency | ||
| * ...: we are collaborating with ActivityPods, already mentioned today, yesterday we announced the collaboration. On Monday, activitypods released v2.0. It combines ActivityPub with Solid. | ||
| * ...: ActivityPods also uses SPARQL; Solid documents are named graphs. NextGraph is doing the same which fits well. They will also adopt DIDs for documents and agents, as NextGraph. A special DID method will be registered. | ||
| * ...: Activity Pods are using SAI - Solid Application Interop, NextGraph is also using it. | ||
| * ...: long term goal is unify our frameworks | ||
| * ...: reactive stores in React, Svelte, Vue | ||
| * ...: NextGraph has documents which are RDF resources, which have primary class. | ||
| * ...: viewers / editors are the apps, manifest specifies which primary classes it can read and write | ||
| * ...: end user can choose which viewer / editor it uses, user is the owenr of the data | ||
| * ...: plans for everything app, to give one good app, there can be other apps available but we want to have one good app on every domain. | ||
| * ...: it is also a social network thanks to pub/sub, it can be compatible with activitypub, also can be bridged to other protocols | ||
| * ...: data is based on revisions, each change is a commit, one can come back to any past revision | ||
| * ...: content is signed by the author, also there are group signatures to proof authenticity to the outsiders | ||
| * ...: it also has branches, new branches can be created as blocks, document can be composed of blocks | ||
| * ...: we also have consensus based on threshold signatures, similar to how blockchains work | ||
| * ...: synchronous transactions (ACID) | ||
| * ...: thanks to NLnet for supporting the project | ||
| * ...: engaging in talks with other actors to converge and gather forces to defeat Big Tech | ||
| * ...: demo! | ||
| * ...: we have web version on left and native linux on the right. there are three stores, one is private which user can only share across devices. there is also the shared space, where one can interact with other users. There is also a public space, like a website. | ||
| * ...: I will create a new document, we can select from different primary classes. As you see it synchronized. I can change the title, it also updated in the other app. I can do a SPARQL update. | ||
| * ...: you can see `did:ng:o:.....` the last part has a public key. | ||
| * ...: let's do another update, now in the other app we see the whole history of the document, creation, signature, adding first triple, then adding another triple. I will add another one on the left and we can see another commit on the right. | ||
| * ...: Now I will disable connection in the web app, I can still edit the document. And in the other ap I will make a different update. No sync yet since the webapp is offline. Now we go backonline and we see on the right a fork. As soon as I make another commit we can see the automatic merge. So it has the automerge without conflicts, it also work on data deletion. | ||
| * Rui: what does the `o` mean in the DID identifier? | ||
| * Niko: We are registering the `did:ng` method; the rest is specific to NextGraph, and `o` means a document. You can find it in the DID section of NextGraph docs. | ||
| * Rahul: Are you aware of Georges m-ld? How does it compare. Also what transport are you using? Are you aware of CRDTs algorithms developed by braid? | ||
| * Niko: Good remarks, I'm familiar with m-ld. I still need to talk with George. m-ld is not end-to-end encrypted but we need to discuss details. We use websockets for now on every clients, also between brokers we use websockets for practical reasons. As for braid, I met them a week ago, I will join them again in the week. A lot of common grounds and interest to work together. | ||
| * Tim: Does it use UDP or TCP | ||
| * Niko: it uses WebSockets so TCP. For now it's good. | ||
| * Tim: This is very exciting, it has a lot of things we want in Solid. We want local-first. Where are you based and who do you work for, why did you start NextCloud. | ||
| * Niko: I'm independent, sponsored by NLnet using EU grants last two years. I applied for another grant this year. I really like your vision about the giant global graph, very inspired by that. I worked with property graph first, four years I embraced RDF. Later added CRDTs and end-to-end encryption. Trying to bridge a gap with solid. | ||
| * Hadrian: Is new method neccessary? There is `did:key`, you may have problem with key rotation. | ||
| * Niko: yes, key rotation is very important. It is already integrated into the protocol and the design. The public key is never going to change, but it is not used for signing. There is a chain; this can be revoked and updated. | ||
| * Hadrian: A discussion for another time. | ||
| * Niko: Please feel invited to NextGraph forum. | ||
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| ### Solid Practicioners | ||
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| URL: https://github.com/solid-contrib/practitioners?tab=readme-ov-file#communication-channels | ||
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| * eP: I would like to propose adding the bi-weekly meeting to the CG calendar | ||
| * ep: Practitioners are meeting every other Thursday. Proposal to move it to the CG. The Solid CG calendar would be a good place. | ||
| * Hadrian: no objection from me, this is related to the direction of Solid CG, are Practicioners open to that? | ||
| * Rahul: Jeff wanted CG involved from the very beggining, adding to the CG calendar would be the minimum involvement. | ||
| * Hadrian: I would prefer not to make that decision until we get agreement with two other chairs. | ||
| * Rahul: Can we coordiante it over matrix? | ||
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| ACTION: Hadrian to coordinate with other chairs and then Jeff | ||
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| ### Special Topic Meeting scheduling | ||
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| * CRDT | ||
| * E2EE | ||
| * eP: on Tuesday I have conflict with FedCM weekly. We should do an online scheduling poll template and use it to schedule each STM | ||
| * eP: Solid calendar app and integrated schedule polling can be a **use case**. With conflict detector, and templates for starting and responding to a poll. | ||
| * Hadrian: I have a conflict as well. One proposal was to have two times, for different timezones. | ||
| * eP: Propose to remove the one that's in the calendar. We can do online polls and make sure that the experts in the field can be present. Better than one fixed slot. For instance, we can run polls 2 weeks ahead, and reach out to the experts. | ||
| * Tim: A year or two ago, we had SolidOS meetings, and decided to have them all in the same constant GMT timezone. We should keep it fixed to GMT. | ||
| * Rahul: I see this coordination problem, especially when you want to get the timezones. I would still suggest to find another fixed slot, and keep it reserved for STM. Having it there would make things easier. | ||
| * Tim: You could coordinate with different priority on different weeks. | ||
| * eP: We had this slot and didn't really use it. It clearly doesn't work. For me, it conflicts. Suggest we start with online slots. After a few months, we can decide whether to use the same slot. If all experts are using the same slot, we can continue that way. | ||
| * Hadrian: We have proposal for a poll and for fixed slots. | ||
| * eP: I don't think the two proposals are mutually exclusive. Especially if we want to reach out to experts who are not Solid CG regulars. | ||
| * Hadrain: I'm propose reducing STM meetings to one hour, and having multiple slots in the week which would be empty to start. Anyone can become a champion of a meeting, reserve a slot, and ensure experts are present. | ||
| * eP: We need to do the poll first. | ||
| * Hadrian: You can do it in any order you like. | ||
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| ACTION: Pavlik to create a poll for CRDTs | ||
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| ### Use cases (continue from last week) | ||
| * eP: eating one's own cat food ☝️ | ||
| * eP: https://github.com/janeirodigital/sai-js/blob/main/examples%2Fplenary%2FREADME.md | ||
| * eP: example apps that could be adapted to solid | ||
| * https://www.discourse.org/ (forum) | ||
| * https://about.gitlab.com/ (project management) | ||
| * https://huly.app (project management) | ||
| * https://openfoodnetwork.org/software-platform/ (supply chains — food) | ||
| * https://degooglisons-internet.org/en/ (misc apps) | ||
| * https://framadate.org/abc/en/ (scheduling polls) | ||
| * https://apps.nextcloud.com/ (misc apps) | ||
| * https://apps.nextcloud.com/apps/polls (polls) | ||
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