Discussion of greater game mechanics?

[didory123]

Just to start off I want to comment that you guys did a fantastic job busting out that v0.10.0 release (@niamu is a machine), it was quite something. I'll definitely try to finish my branch before the Communicon release however I can, I feel bad for not helping out with this one.

Now, I've noticed that our game definitely starts to feel more and more complete these days, hopefully by the next couple of releases, we'll have a version that feels almost like a real, commercially-sold game. Here, I wanted to talk more in-depth about the direction of the single-player game now that we're getting to a stage where our game feels pretty complete. I wanted to open up a thread where we can all discuss to which direction the game can head, and maybe have fun discussing what the game could look like because I don't think we've ever had a place for devs where we just spitballed ideas and features.

Single Player

With the talks of finishing a Cornelius boss for the Communicon release, after that we can honestly technically say that the game is pretty much complete. We have levels in between, a final boss that the player works towards, we can pretty much just stop the game there because I don't think there's really anything else from the episode we need to recreate that's integral to the game story-wise (except maybe the armor system or Abedtown). However, our game is honestly still mediocre, with lots of improvements to be had especially in our levels. I wanted to get some suggestions or comments rolling here, on just how to make this game more complete:

• What sets our game apart? Right now, there's nothing really unique about our game that sets it apart from numerous other platformers other than the fact it's from Community. When I watched the episode for the first time, I remember thinking that this game would be really cool because it felt so expansive. There were interactive npcs, bosses, and as Gilbert mentions in passing, other side-levels and cool things you can unlock. It was like the Skyrim of platformers, but more racist, plus with Community references. Now obviously, making a game like that is super difficult and not that feasible, but I think it's a good thing to keep in mind when we're working, thinking about "how could we make this game feel more expansive and immersive?"
• More Community references! I know this idea might be controversial, but hear me out. This game was designed by Cornelius to punish Pierce for going to Greendale and hanging out with those "cabals of fruits, junkies and sluts". I mean, the game starts out pretty much in the studyroom, and they even go through a freaking Greendale hallway. Now, I'm not saying that we should go full-out on the references and making Chang the boss of VoL or something ridiculous. Subtle callbacks and nods that the players will laugh and get excited if they catch it, things like that will make the game a lot funner in my opinion. It's important that they stay reasonable and make sense though, staying within the context of the episode. For example, having Senor Kevin's in VoL makes sense in my opinion, because it's a prominent restaurant in the city of Greendale, and Cornelius would for sure know of its existence. Or potentially having the Red Dragon towelettes as enemies toes the line of being an obnoxious reference, but keeping with the 'expansive' theme I talked about earlier, having it as a side quest could work.

Multiplayer

Now I know we are nowhere close to developing this but there's been some talk flying around, so I thought it'd be fun to discuss potential ways or ideas to develop a Hawkthorne multiplayer game. Note that this is all just pure hypothetical talk, actual feasibility is an entirely different matter.

• LAN system: if we want to keep the original Hawkthorne world as part of multiplayer, having this would be reeeally fun. Have a party system, see how far and fast players can progress before the entire party dies.
• MMORPG: I know these are all 'what-ifs' discussions for just fun, but this is an idea so out of the realm of possibility I'm gonna choose not to talk about it.
• Greendale as a multiplayer world: I think if we ever somehow do get around to developing a multiplayer, we should keep it within the Greendale world. Jttcoh is a single-player game, and the Greendale levels we have right now can be pretty much Community Online. There's an eternity of ideas that we can discuss about doing a multiplayer Community game so I'm going to choose not to, but it's a cool concept nonetheless.

[didory123]

So on the topic of spitballing ideas, I have a few. These are all enhancement ideas, and I think this could be a good place to dump any of them that we have and maybe hopefully other devs can take a look and get some inspiration.

• Level names popping up when you enter them. Take a look at this post. Like that submitter said, most platformers do this and it helps the player keep track of where they are, as well as make the game feel more immersive.
• How about the introduction of a shortcut key? I know we do this thing where this game can be played with an NES controller and there's only a limited amount of keys, but I don't think we've done anything with the SELECT button.

Take a look at how this game does it. The player can choose to equip a spell or a potion or whatever in another key, allowing the player to quickly use them in the game. This would make gameplay a lot more interesting.

[edisonout]

When I watched the episode for the first time, I remember thinking that this game would be really cool because it felt so expansive. There were interactive npcs, bosses, and as Gilbert mentions in passing, other side-levels and cool things you can unlock

I'd love for the game to have the same feel but I think at the moment stuff like that in our game feels tacked on. We've got crafting and potions and npcs and quests but none of them are really needed to complete the game - they just feel like little extras we've included because we could rather than because they're useful to the player. Other than spiders in the sandpits players don't have to use weapons either until they reach the turkey boss.

Now with the lootable weapons players don't have to buy anything to beat the game and I think someone pointed out you physically couldn't buy some of the weapons with the number of coins that enemies drop in the game and definitely couldn't fully equip yourself without some serious grinding. Same with getting ingredients for potions. Are there actually enough mushrooms/ducks dotted around so the players can brew stuff and are they actually going to bother playing the entire game to collect stuff without the potions only to backtrack to town to make them?

You know I'm not keen on Community references, especially just for the sake of it but if you could come up with a good reason as to why there'd be a restaurant in VoL and how that would add to the game I don't think I'd argue against it being Senor Kevin's.

I could say more but I think expand by improving on what we've got rather than adding more and more features.

[didory123]

@edisonout Honestly though, the only reason our game feels "tacked on" at the moment is because of the lack of levels. At the moment, there aren't that many interesting places that the player might want to go exploring, which was exactly the appeal of the the game in the original episode. Quests, potions, weapons etc are things we can use to great effect but the reason they suck right now can be attributed to how crappy and small our levels are. Honestly, I think this is around the time where we should shift focus to level design and mechanics, because we have all the tools right now to build an expansive, awesome world but not even people making them.

[niamu]

I agree 100% @didory123. Our levels are the next big area of improvement for us. And that's not just from the design of the levels themselves, but the enemy behaviour within them and challenging puzzles within levels. If we can nail that, it will become much clearer how we should tweak weapons and other characteristics of the game.

I'd like to try my hand at creating a level in the near future. Maybe a couple months from now after our October 19th release.

[8bitgentleman]

@edisonout I was the one who pointed out the gold issue yesterday. I did a playthrough of the entire game yesterday killing every enemy and gathering as many coins as I could without grinding. When I entered the sandpits I had 500g and when I got to the castle I had around 1100g. I didn't buy a single weapon. All I did was steal from the blacksmith and use those weapons. I started a branch yesterday which implements several more droppable tokens http://i.imgur.com/qmYIr.gif . I don't think that's the solution to the problem but I could be part of a solution. Also lowering the damage that the looted weapons do could discourage players from using them. I think scaling down the regular damage and increasing the special damage that all the weapons do could be a good idea. That way weapons are more enemy specific.

Right now it’s almost impossible to craft or brew anything with any degree of certainty. There are so many recipes that the player can’t keep track of them all. To rectify this the player should be able to pick up the recipes that we’ve hidden throughout the game and store them in the inventory in a new potionbook/recipe page.

Right now the makeup of our levels are all basically the same, enemies that increase in difficulty and jumping puzzles. Most of the difficult areas are based on mechanical difficulty rather that actual difficulty. I propose that we add more actual puzzles to the game, stuff you have to think through to figure out. I know that's vague but I'm sure we could come up with some awesome stuff if we get together and brainstorm.

-A restaurant in VoL could be a second place where you can brew potions

-I’m all for having subtle Community references, it could be a nice touch to the game, nothing to crazy just a wink wink here and there.

Spitballing time:

Here’s my pitch for the potion book: The first time you leave the town towards the village-forest you hit a cutscene. The old woman from the town comes out and says that she used to be an adventurer in her youth but now she’s retired. She heard that you were going to overthrow Cornelius and wants to help. Since this is your first quest she though she’d give you her old potions book. When the cutscene ends you have a new page in the inventory for any notes/recipes that you pick up.

[CalebJohn]

@8bitgentleman I really like the idea of having to obtain the potion book, although I wonder how we could best fit that into the game we saw in the show. Maybe you can create potions without the book but having it allows you to store them? I think it would be best that she doesn't automatically give you the book but you need to talk with her, maybe explore her dialog before she is willing to give it to you, seeing as you are a stranger and the book is one of a kind.

This sort of leads into talking about npcs and interaction, currently npcs can only walk along pre-scripted paths and can't behave beyond that. What I propose is treating them the same as enemies, I think this reflects better what is seen in the show (killing npcs) and will help give the game a more immersive rpg feel to it. This would include the ability of all npcs to be killed and fight back as well as pursue the player (perhaps across multiple levels). As well giving the npcs the ability to fight would not only discourage players from killing an npc, having the whole town chase you out would be a great incentive not to steal from the blacksmith, lest the armored man outside get involved.

[8bitgentleman]

@CalebJohn I like the player having to talk to the old woman to get the potion book. It adds to the game without veering to far from the episode. An interactive npc base that begins to react to a players actions is definitely the way to go. NPC's following you across levels has been a dream of mine since I coded the first hilda baby. I can imagine a small army of these babies following you through hawkthorne and attacking your enemies in a huge mob. In addition to that @reddfawks has come up with an interesting storyline for gay island that utilizes NPCs following the player.

Spitball time: When Cornelius took over he installed the cruel King Trouser Snake and locked away King Peacock. To get to VoL the player must defeat King Trouser Snake and free King Peacock. To do this the player must rescuing glenn the bear ( peacock's boyfriend) who then nocks down the "bearier" protecting King Trouser Snake. Once King Trouser Snake is defeated the King Peacock is freed and the player can advance to VoL.

[8bitgentleman]

Vrachno @niamu and I were discussing this in conjunction with #2195 on IRC potential story ideas and I think we've come up with something interesting . If, as @CalebJohn suggests, we move to make NPCs more like enemies then we can start to have some really interesting and potentially story-line altering interactions. It was brought up that kiling the blacksmith is really something that Cornelius would do so why can't the player have the option to change sides and help out Cornelius? Stay with me so perhaps after you kill the blacksmith one of Cornelius's minions finds you and asks you to join forces. If you accept you get a new goal: Purge hawkthorne of the nasty rebels (aka NPC). From then on all enemies are passive and all NPCs attack you on sight.

[edisonout]

Well we've got the potion recipe book in the game. Now we just (or rather "just") need to decide what a player needs at each point in the game (e.g. potions or weapons) and ensure they have the means (e.g. money or ingredients) to get them. I think at the same time we should be considering what else the levels provide for the player - does it teach them the necessary controls or techniques and does it get progressively harder or more challenging?

I think it's probably time to stop adding extra add-ons to the game until we've looked at the whole picture and decided what needs altering and how we're going to handle it.

I realise I'm a bit rude having not put any work into this project for months and then saying "this is the way forward" but I think now we're just bloating the game with references, bugs and amazing levels for the sake of amazing levels rather than thinking of the game as a whole.

[8bitgentleman]

After the V1 release I was a little tired of working on the main game so I shifted my focus to expanding Greendale. I definitely agree @edisonout though. If we can go through and hammer down a solid structure for the game as in what the player should have/be able to do in order to continue to the next area that will make @niamu 's browser port a much stronger and cohesive game. In my opinion we've gotten to the point with the desktop version where we're tied down by the amount of code that we already have. We have a sense of perspective now that we didn't when much of it was written.